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Hello all,
this is my first post to this forum so don't mind if something goes wrong way.
I have some issue about citing and sourcing microfilms of church records. Those records are from period between 1850 and 1890, and after WW II local parishes had to give away their Record and Certificate books to State and Local governemts, mainly to Local Archives. I went to Local Archives in my birth town past weekend and had an opportunity to watch microfilmed digital images of those records
On Facebook I received a message that \when citing sources as a Source I need to cite Local Archive and Microfilm and after that record book with records as a source citation.
I am new to sourcing but on SampleQuickCheck Models page of your site I found way to correctly cite my records. Result are as follows:
S. Petronijevic, "Marriage Record Book Jezevica 1863-1880" (images, 12 Nov 2007, Historical Local Archives, Cacak); FHL microfilm Film/folder 10, Image Scan00387, Marriage certificate, p.10/number42.
I use Family Tree Maker 2012. Jezevica is place of Church Local Parish. I have some issues:
- regarding volume, there is no volume number in microfilm, only years 1863-1880. Should I put those years in Volumes field or in Series title?
- Am I on right path by choosing FHL-GSU Preservation Film as an Source template?
- On number of rolls how to find that number? I know only that number of particular roll for this book is 10, and I think that they made 3 rolls for that Church Parish?
Sincerely yiyrs
Fr. Ivan Delic:
Fr. Ivan Delic:
Will you clarify a couple of points for us?
Dear editor,
Dear editor,
I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough.
Sincerely yours,
Fr. Ivan
Fr. Ivan,
Fr. Ivan,
The sample you found online does not fit your need. I assume you do not have a copy of Evidence Explained to study. Because you say you are new to citing old records, it would help you to have the guide.
EE provides a whole chapter on church records (Chapter 7, pages 307-370). It covers many types and many quirks, both American and international. No church example treats Serbia. However, 7.37 (Canada), 7.38 (England), 7.39 (France), 7.40 (Germany), 7.41 (Mexico), 7.43 (Scotland), and 7.45 (Sweden) all treat different situations with microfilmed church records, including those whose records have been taken from the church and deposited in an archive elsewhere—as in your case.
It would also help you immensely to read the first two chapters: Fundamentals of Evidence Analysis, and Fundamentals of Citation. To help you get started, I will review six basic principles that apply to all types of records.
At EE 7.39, you will find an example for French church records that have been deposited at a local archive:
1. Saint-Projet Parish (Bordeaux, France), Marriages and Burials, register GG639, act, Durel-LeBrun marriage (1752); Archives Municipales, Bordeaux.
The elements of the citation are these:
We can now substitute your exact information in place of the French data. There will be three differences.
The elements of your citation are now these:
seriesregister: “Marriage Record Book, 1863-1880,”Once you fill in the missing information that is flagged in red above, then you can assemble the pieces of information into a “citation sentence” like the Saint-Projet example—using the same punctuation that divides each element.
Dear editor,
Dear editor,
thanks for your answer. I'm sorry for double-brackets and italics, I didn't realize that first double quotes are used for books avaliable everywhere.
First point 2b is actually and eventualy my point, others also. So thanks very much. I hope May isn't far away to receive my e-book I ordered from my USA friends.
Thanks for writing it.
P. S. As for me it is more easily to cite source on paper then on some genealogical software Like Family Tree maker 2012, I was confused by Source template.
Sincerely and gratefuly yours
Fr. Ivan Delic
Serbia
>As for me it is more easily
>As for me it is more easily to cite source on paper then on some genealogical software Like Family Tree maker 2012, I was confused by Source template.
Fr. Delic: Many people share your pain, although citation templates in relational databases are immensely improved over earlier generations and are continually getting better. There are also many differences between the various programs that are currently popular.
Meanwhile, many software users who have trouble understanding the templates or getting the templates to do what they need them to do will choose the "freeform citation" option and simply type the citation as they would do on paper.
Hello editor/writter and all
Hello editor/writter and all others,
result of citing are as follows
Serbian Orthodox Church Parish Jezevica (Jezevica, Cacak), "Church Marriage Record Book Jezevica 1863-1880," marriage certificate, page 62, number 21, Tanasije Delic i Jelenka Radosavljevic (1863), microfilm 10, photo Scan 00412; Historical Archiv,es Cacak.
Thanks for your assistance.
Sincerely yours,
Fr. Ivan Delic
Serbia
Fr. Delic, you've done very
Fr. Delic, you've done very well; and, while your Forum Master was tending other vineyards, Kate has offered helpful suggestions—particularly the suggestion that you explain, more explicitly, what "number 21" represents. To those who have less experience with the records, they might not understand whether you were citing a church census, a vestry-board minute, or a sacramental registration.
For EE's part here, we'll mention a couple of other points that pivot upon language issues.
"Marriage Certificate": When we cite a church marriage register, we are usually citing what is called, in English, a registration of the marriage. (In many European countries it is also called a marriage act, although that term is more ambiguous.) A certificate, by contrast, is most often a loose sheet of paper on which some details about the marriage have been extracted from the register. (See EE 7.24)
Microfilm vs. "digital scan": These two terms, in the English language, refer to different products. Microfilm images are made through the conventional photography process that uses film. Digital scanning is a more-modern form of imaging that does not involve film. Many microfilm today are being digitally scanned and the resulting digital files are being put online at various websites; but in your particular case, your details suggest that you used the film itself. When creating a citation in English, the term needed to identify the specific image would be frame.
Beyond that, for certain, your English command of English is waaaay better than EE's command of your own language!
Dear Elizabeth and Kate!
Dear Elizabeth and Kate!
Thanks for the suggestion. I was looking for term other then image in microfilming of document, and I thank you for "frame." As for marriage certificate, I know what you mean. I was very suprised that in mentioned above Marriage Record Book of the crhurch in which my ancestors were married there are actually two parts of the book. One is Register of marriages, like in English, French etc. Record Books. Second part is not there in nowadays Records Books in Serbian Church but it is there in Romanian Crhurch. That is actual list of six records per frame, three on both sides of frame, with short desription of marriage. In first part there are all records writing about the groom, the bride, their parents, dates etc. In second part there are only names of the marrried ones, years of their lives (not always), names of the fathers, places of origin, name of the church and the priest, and at the end there is a name of the goodfather. At the side of each of those six shorten records there is a page and number.
I know and aware of that certificate is one paper sheet which is given to married ones just like the baptized one, but I simply do not know how to call this part of Record Book.
As for the actual name of Local Archives cited in my citation there is a word before Historical, according to Google translate and other dictionaries that I have, best word would be intercommunical. Commune in this word is a sum of three to five local states.
In Record Book Marriages are listed on two sides of frame as a table with about 15 fields and there is a 10 records per frame.
In part that I am citing, there are as I said six records per frame. I recall now that I could ask for actuall Record citation, page and nunmber on that page, but I think it is the same as I cited. Anyway I am sending this "certificate".
As for the number 21, it is actual number of record in Record Book.
Thanks for suggestions, especially empty template form.
My revized citation would be
Saint Nicholas Church (Jezevica, Cacak, Serbia), "Marriage Record Book Jezevica 1863-1880," p. 62, No. 21, Milivoje Delic and Jelenka Radosavljevic marriage (1863), microfilm 10, frame Scan00412; Intercommunical Historical Archives, Cacak, Serbia.
Sincerely yours,
Fr. Ivan Delic Serbia
Fr. Delic,
Fr. Delic,
The image you offer (thank you) well demonstrates another variant type of church record: a preprinted register. These became popular in many places, for both church and civil records, in the mid-to-late 1800s. (In some places, we find them for even earlier records, although they may not represent the original records). For offices or churches that could afford them—and for officials and priests who hated clerical work—preprinted registers provided a quick way of creating records. The boilerplate language was already printed, all they had to do was fill in the blanks.
In EE, you'll find discussions and varying examples at 1.37, 7.30, 7.42, 9.31, and 9.54. We also have, underway, a forthcoming QuickLesson that will explore some of the ramifications of using these.
One of the basic problems, as you'll see from a couple of the EE passages, is that many such registers are not the original registers. Instead, they were created late in the 1800s, at which time pastors and civil clerks went back to older registers and isolated bits and pieces of data from the originals to fill in the blanks of the form-type register.
Your particular register is relatively unusual in that it combines both free-form pages and preprinted pages. What often happened in such a case is that multiple registers had begun to deteriorate and were rebound together. That's a point you would have to decide for yourself through examination of the current register.
Identifying rebinding situations can be a valuable flag for researchers because the deterioration that caused the rebinding was often one in which the original covers were lost together with some of the beginning and ending pages. The rebinding lulls us into a false sense that all the records have been preserved, when many could be missing. In such cases, we can often discover that problem by studying the registers page by page and looking for gaps that do not correspond to the absence of a priest in residence.
Dear editor,
Dear editor,
thansk for looking at my photo, and also for putting me in point of decision. To be on the right path, I will try to find out the record in original part, where actual and all necesery fields were involved in the record (dates of birth, parents names for both of them, etc.) It would be easier for others to find those records instead for listing page after page to find it
Sincerely grateful,
Fr. Ivan Delic
Serbia
Dear Elizabeth, Kate, Dan and
Dear Elizabeth, Kate, Dan and others!
When I sent my first message I was only curious about order of words in citation so I could cite as well as possible. I didn't want to put Serbian Cyrillic word in citation cause I knew that Serbian is rare language back there in USA.
Sincerely yours,
Fr. Ivan Delic
Serbia