Database with Images from different provider

I'm using a new database on Ancestry that pulls the images from Family Search (Kansas County Marriages, 1811-1911). The records are being indexed by Ancestry but the images of the document come from Family Search.

Instead of trying to figure out how to cite this, I thought I'd just go to Family Search and use that site. However, the record I'm after doesn't come up in a search of the Kansas Marriages 1811-1911 collection on Family Search.

So now I'm back to the original issue -- how to cite the information. Ancestry's source info: Ancestry.com. Kansas, County Marriages, 1811-1911 [database on-line]. Lehi, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2016.
Original data: Marriage Records. Kansas Marriages. FamilySearch, Salt Lake City, UT.

I'm using RootsMagic and have a template based on Evidence Explained for databases with online images -- BUT -- it doesn't allow for one party to do the indexing and another to host the images. SUGGESTIONS?

Submitted byEEon Sat, 01/14/2017 - 22:12

McPhilbrick, sorry I didn't spot this sooner. What sections of EE have you been studying as possibilities?  (You mention RootsMagic and "a template based on Evidence Explained," but templates in the software don't provide the background instruction that's needed to understand how to handle quirky sources of this type.)

Submitted bymcphilbrickon Mon, 01/16/2017 - 09:41

I created my own template

<[Jurisdiction], ><[Series], ><[ItemofInterest], ><[RecordDate]; ><[ItemType], ><i><[WebsiteTitle] </i>[URL] : ><[AccessType] ><[AccessDate]>.< Original Source: [Originalsource].>

Using that template, this is what my source looks like.

Footnote: Kansas, County Marriages, 1811-1911, [ItemofInterest], [RecordDate]; database with images, Ancestry.com www.ancestry.com : [AccessType] [AccessDate]. Original Source: Marriage Records. Kansas Marraiges. Family Search, Salt Lake City, UT.

I know I used my copy of EE (2nd Edition) to create the template. Unfortunately, that was at least a year ago. Thus, I can't say for sure which section. Just looking back thru the book, I'm guessing 11.54 or 11.52

 

Submitted byEEon Tue, 01/17/2017 - 12:37

Marcia, given that 11.52 deals with photographic files at NARA and 11.54 deals with Slave Narratives (in all editions)—while you are using county-level marriage records—let’s eliminate those from consideration. This leaves us with several issues to discuss.  Because this response will be long, I will break it into several different postings.

(1) Distinguishing between a footnote and a source list entry.

A footnote or endnote (aka "reference note") is written as a "sentence." Section 2.38 in the "Fundamentals of Citation" chapter gives us this fundamental principle:

Reference Notes: Separation of elements

All elements that describe the source are linked together, sentence style. A period appears at the end of each source’s citation. No period appears in the middle of elements that describe a source (aside from an occasionally abbreviated word).

Source Lists: Separation of elements

“The major elements that describe the source are separated by periods.

In a reference note, when you place a period at the end of a “sentence” and start a new “sentence,” you are telling us that everything in the new sentence deals with a different source. I don’t think that’s what you intend here.

Submitted byEEon Tue, 01/17/2017 - 12:39

(2) Basic rules for citing databases online:

2.12  Citing Indexes & Finding Aids

“When an index points us to a source and we proceed to consult that source, we rarely need to cite the index. An exception would be a case in which an index provides some sort of special insight.”

2.32 Online Materials: Basic Elements to Cite

“Online sources are publications, with the same basic elements as print publications. … Within this framework, we have just four basic rules to remember:

Rule 1: Most websites are the online equivalent of a book. Therefore we cite [Author/Creator, Title (publication place : date), specific page or item].

Rule 2: A website that offers multiple items by different creators is the equivalent of a book with chapters by different authors. That calls for two additional items at the beginning of the citation [Author/Creator (if one is identified); “Title of Database, Chapter, or Article”].

Thus, in your mock-up above, the title of the database should be in quotation marks to tell the reader “This is the exact title for which you should search at Ancestry.” A lack of quotation marks for the data that you enter into the “database title” field tells the reader that you have just generically described the material. Also, see my Part (3) below about mixing details of the database with details of the original source.

Submitted byEEon Tue, 01/17/2017 - 12:45

(3) Citing an index vs. images

Your initial question states that (a) Ancestry has indexed a set of records, which it presents in a database, while (b) FamilySearch presents the images.  The most basic principle of citation is this: We cite what we take our information from.

  • If we take our information from an index and don’t consult the original, then we cite the database that provides the index. (Actually, in this case, what Ancestry is providing isn’t just an index, it’s an extract of the data from the marriage register. See 1.22: Abstracts vs. Extracts; and 1.23 Database Entries & Indexes.)  If we take our information from this extract, then we cite the extract.
  • If we take our information from an image of the original, then we cite the original and the specific database/website that provides the image.

In this case, apparently, it is the FamilySearch image from which you want to take your data. Therefore (as per 2.12 above), it’s the FamilySearch database and its image that you cite.

The Local & State Records: … Vital Records chapter of EE (Chapter 9) gives us the patterns for citing marriage records that we access online through a database as well as index entries or extracts. Particularly see 9.6 “Basic Formats: Online Resources.”

There’s one other basic principle here that applies. When we cite record images or database entries from a website, we have two choices, depending upon what we want to feature:

  1. Cite the database in layer 1; then cite the imaged record in layer 2
  2. Cite the imaged record in layer 1; then cite the database that provides the images in layer 2.

Some people prefer one approach; some prefer another. If, in this case, you want to create just one “master source” for the database and then—each time you use it—add the specific detail about the county, register name, page, entry number, etc., then you would choose the first approach. If you want to feature the county and its set of marriage records, then you would choose the second option. That’s where peas and apples are being mixed in your mock-up.

The basic rule for citing complex sources that involve layers is this: All information that deals with the original record itself should go in that layer; and all information that identifies the database (a new creation by someone else) should go in that database layer.  (Edition 3's QuickStart Guide, at flyleaf, covers this with more explicitness) Your mock-up seems to favor option 2, but it takes the title of the database and puts it in the first layer where you need to cite the record itself. When we cite a record, we begin with the name of the creator of that record. In this case, the creator of the record is the specific county, it’s not “Kansas, County Marriages, 1811-1911.”

This leads us to your bottom line: How do you cite this particular collection of local registers from FamilySearch? The version of EE that you have at hand (2d edition) does not have an example for county-level marriage registers at FamilySearch. However, it does (10.6) have an example of county-level deed records. That difference is meaningless. A county-level register is a county-level register. All we do is substitute specific details.

Also, if you will query this EE website (top right of any screen) for “marriage records” you will find several examples that deal with marriage databaes at FamilySearch,with discussions. For example:

https://www.evidenceexplained.com/content/need-your-opinion-marriage-record

https://www.evidenceexplained.com/content/online-image-databases-and-ftm-family-tree-maker-2014

Submitted bymcphilbrickon Wed, 01/18/2017 - 12:12

Thanks for all of your help!

Since Ancestry plainly says the images are coming from FamilySearch, I re-tried locating the images on FamilySearch and found them. That removes the need to cite Ancestry.

A couple of years ago, I switched from The Master Genealogist to RootsMagic. Since my citations from TMG used templates based on older standards, I've been trying to learn how to configure source templates in RootsMagic based on EE. I need to learn to rely on my Kindle version (edition 3) instead of grabbing my book version (edition 2).

After you pointed me to citing a marriage record, I was able to create a template. Since I am a 'lumper', I was trying to create a template that would work for images found online for birth, marriage or death records. There's  a couple of things I haven't figured out how to do with the template to get the three different formats correct. For example, I can get it to say 'Database with iamges' in the Source Entry List (Bibliography) but can't get it to just say 'image' in the First Reference Note (Footnote). That would be possible with 2 different fields, but I was trying to avoid that. I also can't get the Subsequent Note (Short Footnote) to use abbreviations and surnames. I will do some searching on RootsMagic forums to see if I can get some help from there.

Below is what I have right now:

FamilySearch -- citation from the site:

"Kansas County Marriages, 1855-1911," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939J-TG9K-QQ?cc=1851040&wc=QZPV-R4C%3A166157401%2C166216801 : 16 February 2016), Woodson > image 146 of 310; citing district clerk, court clerk, county clerk and register offices from various counties.

Used RootsMagic Website Template and copied/modified it
Used 9.6 in EE version 3 as a guide --

Footnote Template
<[County]><, [State]><, [RecordType]><, [Volume]><:[Page]><, [ItemOfInterest]><, [EventDate]><; [ItemType:lower]|image>, "[DatabaseTitle]," <[CreatorOwner], ><i>[WebsiteTitle]</i> ([URL]:  <accessed [AccessDate]>)<; citing [CreditLine]>.

Short Footnote Template
<[County]><, [State]><. [RecordType]><, [Volume]><:[Page]><, [ItemOfInterest]><, [RecordYear]>.

Bibliography Template
<[State]><. [County]><. [RecordType]><, [RecordYear]><. [ItemType:Caps]>. "[DatabaseTitle]."  <[CreatorOwner]. ><i>[WebsiteTitle]</i>. [URL]<: [AccessDate:Year]>.

Source Detail Fields: AccessType, AccessDate, ItemOfInterest, ItemType, County, RecordYear, Volume, Page, EventDate [unique to each citation]

Footnote:
Woodson County, Kansas, Marriage Records, vol. E:180, Charles O. Mentzer-Nettie A. Wells, 18 Oct 1893; database with images, "Kansas County Marriages, 1855-1911," FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org: accessed 17 January 2015).

Short Footnote:
Woodson County, Kansas. Marriage Records, vol. E:180, Charles O. Mentzer-Nettie A. Wells, 1893.

Bibliography:
Kansas. Woodson County. Marriage Records, 1893. Database with images. "Kansas County Marriages, 1855-1911." FamilySearch. https://familysearch.org: 2015.

Submitted byEEon Thu, 01/19/2017 - 09:33

Marcia,

EE would do one more tweak to your first citation (aside from putting FamilySearch in italics).The source-of-the-source data can and should be more explicit. Rather than "citing district clerk, court clerk, county clerk and register offices from various counties," which is a very generic Ancestry type of collection description, it would be more useful to say

imaged from Woodson Co. Marriage Records, Book E (1891-1896): 180. 

Using our own eyes to verify what has been imaged, we can see the page number on the image for the page. Then, by scrolling back to the start of the volume, we can see for ourselves the register title that is actually written/printed on the cover of the volume.

We could, if we wish to cover all bases, add a "citing"layer to report FamilySearch's own citation that appears under the "Information" tab at the bottom of the image as a "Film note," which would be

FHL film no. 004665195, covering Woodson County "Marriage records: v. E-G 1891 (Jul)-1904 (Dec)."

Of course, when FamilySearch says "Film note," they are creating a generic description for all items that appear on that roll of film, rather than precisely citing a specific county record.