Citing a 3rd party digitized copy of microfilm of original by state archives

By lemonstand on Sun, 08/01/2021 - 12:29

Forums

I know there was a similar question recently regarding this issue but I think the foreign language confused me. I know there are supposed to be layers to a citation. 

I guess in this case, that would be the original document. Then the layer when that document was microfilmed by the NC Archives? Then the layer where those records were digitized and a database was created by a third party. Or maybe I have them in the wrong order?

After a quick email, I discovered NC Land Grant Images and Data | Home (nclandgrants.com) uses four specific series for their digitization project.  Deed and patent books, but note that the patent books were not part of the Granville Land Office as you indicated while the deeds were.  The collection for the patent books is SR.12.7.2 Secretary of State Record Group, Land Office (Colonial and State), Patent Books (Land Grant Record Books) while the collection for the Granville Deeds is SR.12.8.3 Secretary of State Record Group, Granville Proprietary Land Office, Granville Grants of Deed. 

So basically, you have 4 possible items (I think), an grant index card (prepared by archives to catalog), a deed or patent book, a loose deed, a loose warrant/plat. All but the books, I believe were organized into 'shucks' or folders which were numbered and at some point before or after were microfilmed by the NC Archives.

I've been researching A LOT of records and want to give myself a 'fill in the blank' model to help make sure I'm collecting ALL the information I need to create my citation breadcrumb trail, and would love to be able to do it in the correct order.

I'm only going to ask about one item and hope I can develop the other three from this one.

This is for a loose land plat made for Thomas Ford, but is located in shuck file no. 87, William Bullock, containing his grant no. 246. (https://nclandgrants.com/grant/?mars=12.14.66.86&qid=675898&rn=14).

After finding the item in the NC Archive catalog (https://axaem.archives.ncdcr.gov/solrDetailPages/series/NCA/Series_detail.html?fq=seriesRid:332004) I've come up with the following Source List Entry:

North Carolina. Granville Proprietary Land Office, Granville Grants of Deed. Office of the Secretary of State. State Archives of North Carolina, Raleigh. North Carolina Land Grant Images and Data. Digital images and database. (https://nclandgrants.com : accessed 30 Jul 2021); State Archives of North Carolina, Raleigh. 

First full reference note would (I think) would look like this:

North Carolina. Granville County. Thomas Ford plat for 809 acres on Anderson Swamp, 20 May 1754; Granville Proprietary Land Office, Granville Grants of Deed; State Archives of North Carolina, Raleigh. North Carolina Land Grant Images and Data. Digital images and database. (https://nclandgrants.com/frame/?fdr=246&frm=153 : accessed 30 Jul 2021); State Archives of North Carolina, Raleigh. MARS: SR. 12.8.3.019, digitized from microfilm S.108.245, frame 151 of 1330. Plat used by William Bullock to finalize grant no. 246, 13 Nov 1756.

I want to add that not all of the records are specifically linked. The database does, however, give you a close marker on the film from which to locate the correct frame which is awesome, but I think it's important to note the frames.

Any assistance is gratefully appreciated.

Submitted byEEon Mon, 08/02/2021 - 10:13

lemonstand, would you give us the path to take from the home page? The URL above leads only to a sign-in/sign-up page. I already have an account there, but when I use your link, instead of taking me to the image, it simply goes back to the sign-in/sign-up page.  (I would ask for the exact URL, but those exact URLs at this site, as now constructed, do tend to be dynamic rather than static.)

In the meanwhile, to answer one of your questions ...  EE’s layered citations for imaged documents follow this pattern:

  • Layer 1: Cite the original document, using details we discern for ourselves in the image—not what we rooted around to find elsewhere.
  • Layer 2: Cite the database and website that provide the image.
  • Layer 3: Provide any source-of-the-source information supplied by the website that is not discernible from the images.

 

lemonstand, I'll add one thing more—an issue that arose in another query I'm answering this morning and also appears in yours.  Go to https://www.evidenceexplained.com/node/1930#comment-5170 and scroll down to

  • my first response
  • EddieB's response
  • My reply to EddieB that begins "Eddie B., there's a basic ..."

Submitted bylemonstandon Mon, 08/02/2021 - 14:59

2nd try using QuickCheck Model Image Copies: Online p494 of second ed. rev. of Evidence Explained.

Source List Entry

North Carolina. Granville County. Granville Proprietary Land Office, Granville Grants of Deed. State Archives of North Carolina, Raleigh. Digital images and database. NC Historical Records Online. North Carolina Land Grant Images and Data. Digital images and database. https://nclandgrants.com/ : 2021.

First (Full) Reference Note

North Carolina. Granville County. State Archives of North Carolina, Raleigh NC, microfilm call # S.108.245, frame 151 of 1330, Thomas Ford plat, 20 May 1754; digital image and database, NC Historical Records Online, North Carolina Land Grant Images and Data (https://nclandgrants.com/frame/?fdr=246&frm=151 : accessed 30 Jul 2021); https://nclandgrants.com > QUERY > Name: William Bullock, County: Granville > File #87 > Plat > See images within reel. Citing State Archives of North Carolina, Raleigh. MARS: SR.12.8.3.019. Ford, Thomas, Granville Co., 1754. Granville grant no. 246 issued to William Bullock, 13 Nov 1756.

Subsequent Note

North Carolina. Granville County. State Archives of North Carolina, Raleigh NC, microfilm call # S.108.245, frame 151 of 1330, Thomas Ford plat, 20 May 1754.

This is why I desperately want to learn how to leave a proper bread crumb trail! It's hard to tell sometimes whether what I have access to, might not be available to others or as easily. I read through the comments concerning punctuation and hope I've corrected that. Also, should my comment at end about the Granville grant being issued to someone else be another paragraph or have some other punctuation showing it's a comment ABOUT the the information in the citation?

Thank you!

 

Submitted bylemonstandon Mon, 08/02/2021 - 15:10

Third times a charm, right?

Granville Count, North Carolina, State Archives of North Carolina, Raleigh NC, microfilm call # S.108.245, frame 151 of 1330, Thomas Ford plat, 20 May 1754; digital image and database, NC Historical Records Online, North Carolina Land Grant Images and Data (https://nclandgrants.com/frame/?fdr=246&frm=151 : accessed 30 Jul 2021); https://nclandgrants.com > QUERY > Name: William Bullock, County: Granville > File #87 > Plat > See images within reel. Citing State Archives of North Carolina, Raleigh. MARS: SR.12.8.3.019. Ford, Thomas, Granville Co., 1754. Granville grant no. 246 issued to William Bullock, 13 Nov 1756.

Submitted byEEon Mon, 08/02/2021 - 19:38

Lemonstand, I definitely understand your frustration with that site and your cite. I love David McCorkle—not that I actually know him, but I love him anyway for the kajillion documents he has made available to us. That said, in constructing citations to his site, I've also muttered under my breath some words I would not want to say aloud in civilized company.

As background: this is the third or fourth set of citation formats, I've had to work out for the site. When I first began using it about five years ago, I worked out a format that was usable for everything offered then and there. Then the site grew, new things were added, and the old templates did not work. Last May he introduced “version 2” of his website. The citations I developed for my research reports, at that time, no longer work now.  So, back to the drawing board.

After several hours of working with his page today, my basic conclusion is the same that I've always had: There is no clear way for us to begin a layered citation by citing the original in Layer 1 as all of your citation drafts have tried to do. That format, for websites where it works (frequently at Ancestry or FamilySearch), would follow the basics I described in a response above:

  • Layer 1: Cite the original document, using details we discern for ourselves in the image—not what we rooted around to find elsewhere.
  • Layer 2: Cite the database and website that provide the image.
  • Layer 3: Provide any source-of-the-source information supplied by the website that is not discernible from the images.

The only way I see to create a workable template for this site would be to cite the database/website in Layer 1 and then build from there. In many cases, we have to do this at Ancestry and FamilySearch also, simply because of the way a particular database is structured.

One basic point is significant here: The URL for your cited image (and others) takes us to a data page for a specific grant. Not a data page for a person, but the exact grant. Therefore, the critical details for that grant needs to be identified in citation. That information is put into the “specific item field” after the website and the URL is cited. For example:

Data page:

North Carolina Historical Records Online, North Carolina Land Grant Images and Data, database with images (https://nclandgrants.com/grant/?mars=12.14.66.86&qid=676429&rn=1 : accessed 30 Jul 2021), data page for William Bullock patent (809 acres issued 13 November 1756, Grant No. 246, Patent Book 11: 322). 

You’ll notice that this basic pattern follows the same that we would use for a book:

Creator/author, Title of Book, edition data (Place of publication = website : date), specific item (page, figure, table, etc.) 

  1. The same exact URL is generated regardless of whether we access the patent image, the deed image, or the plat image. It differs only for the “offsite” images.  That URL for the patent, deed, or plat is consistently the URL of the data page for that grant. Therefore, we must treat each of the clickable options within the framework of the URL/data page that takes us to the icons. In the examples below, I'm using red to flag the wording changes from one example to the other.

Patent Image:

North Carolina Historical Records Online, North Carolina Land Grant Images and Data, database with images (https://nclandgrants.com/grant/?mars=12.14.66.86&qid=676429&rn=1 : accessed 30 July 2021), data page for William Bullock patent (809 acres issued 13 November 1756, Grant No. 246, Patent Book 11: 322), for patent image click "Land Patent Book Page(s) for Land Grant File Number 87"; citing "S108.160-3 - State Land Patent Books: Volumes 10-13," State Archives of North Carolina, Raleigh. 

Plat Image:

North Carolina Historical Records Online, North Carolina Land Grant Images and Data, database with images (https://nclandgrants.com/grant/?mars=12.14.66.86&qid=676429&rn=1 : accessed 30 July 2021), data page for William Bullock patent (809 acres issued 13 November 1756, Grant No. 246, Patent Book 11: 322), for plat image click "Granville Grant Deeds with Attached Plats"; citing “Deed #:246, Box: SSLG 34G, MARS: 12.13.34.23” and “File no.: 87, Granville Deed #246, MARS: 12.14.6686 12.13.34.23,” State Archives of North Carolina, Raleigh. 

Deed Image:

North Carolina Historical Records Online, North Carolina Land Grant Images and Data, database with images (https://nclandgrants.com/grant/?mars=12.14.66.86&qid=676429&rn=1 : accessed 30 July 2021), data page for William Bullock patent (809 acres issued 13 November 1756, Grant No. 246, Patent Book 11: 322), for deed image click "Granville Grant Deeds with Attached Plats"; citing “Deed #:246, Box: SSLG 34G, MARS: 12.13.34.23” and “File no.: 87, Granville Deed #246, MARS: 12.14.6686 12.13.34.23,” State Archives of North Carolina, Raleigh.  NOTE: For the URL to work, one must first sign into the website, then enter the exact URL.

And then there is the data page’s icon that reads “Click to locate loose document images,” for which we are given this instruction:

THE LOOSE DOCUMENT IMAGES ASSOCIATED WITH THIS FILE ARE ON THIS WEBSITE, BUT HAVE NOT YET BEEN LINKED TO THE DATA.

By clicking the above image, you will be taken to the approximate location on the microfilm containing the images for this grant. You can then scan the images to find the correct ones.

This appears to be the microfilm you are trying to cite. But when I click this icon it takes me to a page offering 20 images. This page tells us it is for the William Bullock patent and it highlights frame 371 of what it says (at the top of the page, several lines above) is a collection of 1477 frames. At the 371 number, when I click the “Previous 20” button with the intent of going back to “frame 151” that you cite, it will only allow me to go to 271. Meanwhile, you identify your document as being on “frame 151 of 1330,” not 1477. That makes me question whether I have landed at the right set of microfilm images.

Bottom line, having run out of time for this evening after four hours, I’ve not given you a citation to the microfilm image.

And then there is the issue of how someone who approaches the website would go about finding a particular grant. That’s an entirely different process that follows a different path. That said, the issue at hand is How to cite, as clearly as possible, what we’ve already found. It's not how to find a person's data in the first place.

Submitted bylemonstandon Mon, 08/02/2021 - 20:33

THANK YOU SO MUCH! This site has been worth the learning curve and David McCorkle deserves a lot of credit (and homage) for making these records available. Being able to see the original records and SIGNATURES has made a HUGE difference in my own research. 

To reach the last record you were trying to get to, I had to keep pressing the "previous" or "next" button instead of jumping groups of records. (Which I will try tomorrow to cite properly now that I know the best way to do so. Like you, after hours of research, I need a break) I'm grateful to have access to the records and having the pointer drop me in the vicinity of the record until all the the records have been connected (which he is working on) and without having to search the entire microfilm is a boon. I believe he has not been able to do this work full time (which is even more amazing), but am sure that it will eventually reach the point of being able to click on document for user enlightenment to ensue. :) 

Until that time occurs, thank you for showing how to cite all but the last document. You did the heavy lifting and explained why sometimes you need flexibility in citations. Will post the last citation tomorrow.

Submitted bylemonstandon Tue, 08/03/2021 - 08:23

For Loose Documents Associated with Land Grant

David McCorkle, North Carolina Land Grant Images and Data, digital images and database (https://nclandgrants.com/frame/?fdr=389&frm=392&mars=12.14.66.86 : accessed 30 July 2021), data page for William Bullock patent (809 acres issued 13 November 1756, Grant No. 246, Patent Book 11: 322), for loose documents associated with this file, image click "Loose Document Image(s) for Land Grant File Number 87", click closest frame to corresponding grant number, click "Previous frame"/"Next frame" to No. 87 ; citing "S108.717 - Granville County Land Grant Files 1-1044A," State Archives of North Carolina, Raleigh.  NOTE: For the URL to work, one must first sign into the website, then enter the exact URL.

Forgot to mention that unless you must be on an single specific frame or you will only have the option of moving in groups which places you in general vicinity of file and will back you forward or backward groups of pages. If the specific frame needed is not seen, then while on the nearest frame number, you are given the option to move one frame at a time. 

I know this will change as all records are linked. I believe the actual web address of the actual microfilm frame of a specific item is the permanent link address. I believe David McCorkle is in the process of clarifying this.

Lemonstand, thanks for working through this. Now, I'll add a wrinkle (aside from those I added earlier this afternoon). The URL you provided in this last posting actually takes us to the exact image of that microfilmed shuck for which the patent's data page provides an icon and link. Using that URL, we would not have to cite the data page. We could trim the citation down to this:


      1. North Carolina Historical Records Online, North Carolina Land Grant Images and Data, database with images (https://nclandgrants.com/frame/?fdr=389&frm=392&mars=12.14.66.86 : accessed 30 July 2021), land grant shuck for William Bullock patent (809 acres issued 13 November 1756, Grant No. 246, Patent Book 11: 322); citing "S108.717 - Granville County Land Grant Files 1-1044A," State Archives of North Carolina, Raleigh.


Again, we have that issue we often confront when creating online citations: separating (a) the process we went through to get to a document, from (b) the need for a clear and direct citation to the document. Perhaps David, who is now monitoring this thread, will explain why clicking on the icon does not seem to take us directly to the shuck image.

 

I appreciate the kudos!  It's a really busy week, but I will quickly explain the part about locating unindexed documents.  With the exception of Mecklenburg County, none of the grants are directly linked to the loose document ("shuck") images.  This is a big project that needs to be crowdsourced, and although I have had plenty of people interested in helping I have a bit of work to do on my end first to make it possible.

In the meantime, I figured out way to get you close to the images.  Almost all the reels contain grant images for a single county, and within each reel is a range of grant file numbers in numerical order.  For example, Dobbs County Files 844 - 1168.  The land grant record has the county and file number, so using that I can locate the correct reel because I took the time to code that information for each reel.

The challenge is the fact that the number of images (frames) per grant can vary from 1 to 6.  The way I handle this is I use the same technique we all use when looking a microfilm where the records are in order.  If in the prior example I was looking for Dobbs File 1100, I would know it is near the end of the reel and I would "fast forward" to the near the end and then move back or forth to find the correct number.  What the software does is divide the number of images in a reel by the number of grants in the reel to get the average number of images per grant.  It then uses that to get the approximate location in the reel, and typically gets it within +/- 20 frames.  It shows you where it thinks it is, and you can move backwards or forwards to try and find it.

Where it works best is when the average frames per grant is consistent across a reel.  There are cases where the earlier grants in a reel have no images except the shuck, while the later ones have 4 or 5 images.  That messes up the average so it won't get you that close, but you simply have to click more to find the correct one.

This will no longer be necessary once each county in indexed.

 

Submitted byEEon Tue, 08/03/2021 - 16:44

 

As an update for all ...

1.  By the time I finished that long post last night, my PC was so sluggish that I ran CCleaner, wiped the caches on all my browsers, and otherwise cleaned gunk out of the PC's carburetor. The result also remedied one problem I noted in last night's post. The URL that lemonstand gave is now working automatically after sign-in, just as it should. Therefore, I am removing that "NOTE" from the thread above so it will not mislead others.

2. David McCorkle, the benevolent genius who launched this website to provide all these North Carolina land records, also asks for an update in the "author/creator/owner" field for his website. While he was the site's creator, the site is now under the aegis of a nonprofit, North Carolina Historical Records Online (http://nchistoricalrecords.org/) and that organization should be cited now in the field for author/ creator/owner. I am also making the correction in the examples, for all those who may read only that far into this thread and not see this update.

3. And now for the best news: David also reports his intent to build citations into the site. (What more could someone ask from a site that's already giving us hundreds of thousands of images for free?!) In appreciation, we might consider donations to that organization to help finance the digitization of (and online access to) more of these records.


Thank you, David.