Forums
I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by layered citations despite using the templates in my software. I have the following citation for a passport application:
"United States Passport Applications, 1795-1925," database and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org : accessed 15 Jul 2023); passport application no. 15633 for John Woodruff Culmer dated 8 March 1880, M1372 Passport Applications, 1795-1905 > Roll 233, vol 516-518, 1880 Mar-Apr > image 159 of 1524; citing NARA microfilm publications M1490 and M1372 (Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.).
I'm thinking the M1372 is redundant, and I wonder if I even need the reference to M1490.
Hello mbcross. Let’s see if…
Hello mbcross. Let’s see if we can demystify the layered citation concept ...
When we have imaged documents online, we have two or three things to cite:
We may also reverse layers 1 and 2, depending upon our needs. We may not need Layer 3 if we can discern for ourselves all the details needed to fully identify the record.
The one cardinal rule is that details that belong in one layer should never be placed in one of the other layers. If we have an eggplant and a Granny Smith apple, side-by-side, and we’re asked to describe each of them, we don’t take the “green” part of the apple description and use it to describe the eggplant, right?
This is where you’re getting confused.
Let's begin again with an image of the document to which your citation points and discuss what we see on that page:
From this image alone, we can extract the following that are essential to a citation--i.e., the who, what, when, where details:
From this image alone, we have no idea where, in the physical world, this document is found or what it came from. As we would do with any book or roll of microfilm, we go back to the start of the book or the film to see what additional information may be there. At image 4, we see this:
This is a title page for a National Archives microfilm publication. From this image, we can construct a full citation to exactly what we are using—just as if we were reading the title page to a book or using the microfilm itself:
Registers and Indexes for Passport Applications, NA microfilm publication M1371, 13 rolls (No place, though we know that NA is in DC: National Archives, no date), roll 233, target 1 (volume 516, March 1–31, 1880), ……….
At the point where the ellipses appear, we need to identify a specific item of interest. That would be the document No. 15633 that is the passport for Name, Date, Place. So, let’s take the identifying data we’ve extracted from that document and plug it into the Specific Item Block of the citation:
LAYER 1: RECORD LAYER
Registers and Indexes for Passport Applications, NA microfilm publication M1371, 13 rolls (Washington, DC: National Archives, no date), roll 233, target 1 (volume 516, March 1–31, 1880), John Woodruff Culmer passport application no. 15633 (applied 8 March 1880, issued 10 March 1880), Pittsburg, Allegheny County, Pennsylvania;
Now, we need to cite the website that delivered this record to us. Again, we cite it using the same basic pattern we would use for a print publication. Specifically, citing a named database at a website is equivalent to citing a chapter in a book that has different chapter authors whose material has to be individually identified. The data we need for this citation comes from the “frame” that FamilySearch puts around the image. Let’s zero-in on the top of that frame
In the browser box at the top, we see the exact URL for the image. Then we see a couple of lines from Family Search with menu options. Below that, FamilySearch states
Let’s assemble all that in the standard format for citing a book or website that has differently authored chapters or databases:
LAYER 2: ACCESS LAYER
“United States Passport Applications, 1795–1925,” FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99DC-NBQ2) > (M1372) Passport Applications, 1795–1905 > Roll 233, vol 516-518, 1880 Mar-Apr > image 159 of 1524.
Then we put the two layers together:
1. Registers and Indexes for Passport Applications, NA microfilm publication M1371, 13 rolls (Washington, DC: National Archives, no date), roll 233, target 1 (volume 516, March 1–31, 1880), John Woodruff Culmer passport application no. 15633 (applied 8 March 1880, issued 10 March 1880), Pittsburg, Allegheny County, Pennsylvania; “United States Passport Applications, 1795–1925,” FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99DC-NBQ2) > (M1372) Passport Applications, 1795–1905 > Roll 23, vol 516-518, 1880 Mar-Apr > image 159 of 1524.
In this case, we do not need a third “citing …” layer because we can gather, from the images themselves, all the details needed for the full citation to the original document/microfilm. We don’t need to depend upon FamilySearch's statement that it took the information from whatever.
At the bottom of the FS image of the document, we also see the following:
What FamilySearch has done here is to switch the emphasis from the individual document to its own database. Rather than citing the document in Layer 1 and citing its own database in Layer 2, FamilySearch uses this approach:
Switching the order of Layers 1 and 2, for imaged records, is perfectly fine. That’s the advantage of working with layers for imaged records: we can switch the layers as needed. In this case, if we have multiple citations to this set of records, and we are entering citations into data-management software, then it would be easier to create just one Master Source:
“Database,” Website (URL for the collection itself) …
Then, for each of the passports we use from this database, we can stuff the details into that Specific Item Block after the parentheses.
QuickLesson 19: Layered Citations Work Like Layered Clothing (https://www.evidenceexplained.com/content/quicklesson-19-layered-citations-work-layered-clothing) explains all this from different angles.
I think I'm still confused…
I think I'm still confused about how to enter this citation into my software (Legacy). Although they have SourceWriter templates based on EE, I'm struggling with where to put some of the information, such as the information gleaned from the title page (Registers and Indexes for Passport Applications...). Also, within this citation, would it be acceptable to gently correct the spelling of "Pittsburg" by adding the "h" at the end?
That said, I do intend to lead with the database information because John Woodruff Culmer has another passport application from the previous year, and fortunately, there appears to be no conflicting information regarding his birth date, birth place, etc.
Ah, yes, mbcross. The tail…
Ah, yes, mbcross. The tail does wag the dog. Too often today, our difficulties with citing our sources boils down to How do I manipulate my software to record all the details that need to be recorded?
Of course, that happens because (a) every online provider creates its own delivery architecture that affects what we need to record; (b) software designers have their own architectures we must work within; and (c) software designers can't or don’t stay abreast of all the changes that all the websites make.
In that same vein, EE cannot attempt to give advice on how to create citations within the templates of specific software; each software has its own user groups for that. EE's purpose is to show what details a history researcher needs to record in order to (a) analyze the validity of the information taken from a source; and (b) enable someone to find the source again.
And all of this is why so many serious researchers ignore the templates in software and simply create a free-form citation that says what needs to be said.
After working through and…
After working through and almost wanting just to leave things uncited (gasp!) or just create something that left out so many details, I've come up with the following citation:
"United States Passport Applications, 1795-1925," database and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org : accessed 17 Jul 2023); Registers and Indexes for Passport Applications, NARA microfilm publication M1371, 13 rolls (Washington, DC: National Archives, n.d.), roll 233, target 1 (volume 516, March 1–31, 1880), John Woodruff Culmer passport application no. 15633 (applied 8 March 1880, issued 10 March 1880), Pittsburg, Allegheny County, Pennsylvania; citing (M1372) Passport Applications, 1795–1905 > Roll 23, vol 516-518, 1880 Mar-Apr > image 159 of 1524.
I led with the database because, as mentioned earlier, I have located another passport application for John Woodruff Culmer within this same database. I'd imagine some minor tweaks might be needed.
Anytime we add evidence from…
Anytime we add evidence from a source document we should not correct the spelling of what is actually written. What I do is (with discretion) is add the correct spelling or left out characters in parentheses. With Genealogy software we sometimes have to manipulate the template or use a basic template to get the citation correct (not sure how well this works with Legacy but my Family Tree Maker templates give a lot of leeway for First (Full) Reference Notes). Some templates have a way of putting a comma where we don't want them. Bottom line is you have to play around with your Legacy Templates till you have the information structured as explained above.
Hello, mbcross. Let me try…
Hello, mbcross. Let me try to explain things differently because there are still the same core issues. And they are going to affect every citation to every database from this website that you try to create following the pattern you’ve created. So, two questions, as food for thought:
1. When we follow your citation, and we go to familysearch.org, how do we get from there to the database called “United States Passport Applications, 1795-1925"?
2. When users of your citation who are not familiar with the architecture of familysearch figure out that they need to add a couple of steps not included in your citation (i.e., familysearch.org plus the path: Search > Records) and they find the right database, how do they get from there to the next thing in your citation: Registers and Indexes for Passport Applications, NARA microfilm publication M1371? The landing page for that database offers no such option.
Many users will also be confused by the fact that you end your Layer 1 immediately after the parenthetical publication data for the database:
"United States Passport Applications, 1795-1925," database and images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org : accessed 17 Jul 2023);
When we cite a database, we also have to cite what we’re looking for in that database—in that same layer. As we discussed earlier, a database at a website is cited by the same pattern used for a book that has chapters by different authors:
Name of Creator/Author If Given, “Title of Chapter or Database,” descriptor, Title of Book or Website (Publication Place = URL : Date), specific item or page within this database or chapter.
The Specific Item is missing from your Layer 1. What you’ve done is to close out Layer 1, unfinished, then start Layer 2 in which you present a full citation to a different publication by a different publisher:
Registers and Indexes for Passport Applications, NARA microfilm publication M1371, 13 rolls (Washington, DC: National Archives, n.d.), roll 233, target 1 (volume 516, March 1–31, 1880), John Woodruff Culmer passport application no. 15633 (applied 8 March 1880, issued 10 March 1880), Pittsburg, Allegheny County, Pennsylvania;
There are three problems here:
1. Traditionally, when citing multiple publications in the same footnote, students have been taught to cite one source, put a semicolon, then cite the next source. Therefore, many users of your citation, when they see that semicolon at the end of the incomplete citation to the database, followed by a full citation to a different source, will think you are citing two different sources—as opposed to the actual situation: one source, a database, presenting images from elsewhere.
2. How does the user of your citation get from the database’s landing page to this specific publication by NARA? In your citation, the road has dead-ended. There’s a chasm there with no bridge across it. The database does provide a bridge eventually: a path and a couple of waypoints that take us from the landing page to the image that we want. But you’ve moved that bridge to Layer 3. Your reader has to swim through several lines of citation to a different publication before they get to your Layer 3.
3. Your Layer 3 (the “Citing …” Layer), says that the database is citing itself—ts own internal architecture:
citing (M1372) Passport Applications, 1795–1905 > Roll 23, vol 516-518, 1880 Mar-Apr > image 159 of 1524.
As we discussed yesterday, this is not what the database is citing. The database does not cite its own structure. The database cites the National Archives publication from which it took the images. That citation appears beneath each image, as shown below:
All things considered, a citation that emphasizes the database would be this (alterations in red):
LAYER 1
"United States Passport Applications, 1795-1925," database and images, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/2185145 : accessed 17 Jul 2023) > (M1372) Passport Applications, 1795–1905 > Roll 233, vol 516-518, 1880 Mar-Apr > image 159 of 1524: John Woodruff Culmer passport application no. 15633 (applied 8 March 1880, issued 10 March 1880), Pittsburg[h], Allegheny County, Pennsylvania;
Note that
Now we are ready to close out Layer 1. The next layer will be your "Citing ..." Layer.
LAYER 2
citing “NARA microfilm publications M1490 and M1372 (Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.).”
Note that
Thanks for your…
Thanks for your clarifications. I'm hoping the citation to the other passport application I've mentioned previously will go much more smoothly.
Here's what I crafted based…
Here's what I crafted based largely on the citation for the 1880 passport application:
"United States Passport Applications, 1795-1925," database and images, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/2185145 : accessed 17 Jul 2023) > (M1372) Passport Applications, 1795-1905 Roll 229, vol 509-510, 1879 May-Jun > image 1153 of 1456: John Woodruff Culmer passport application no. 13257 (applied 18 June 1879, issued 19 June 1879), Philadelphia, Philadelphia County, Pennsylvania; citing “NARA microfilm publications M1490 and M1372 (Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.).” Note that FamilySearch’s citation to M1372 errs. Image 4 at this database depicts the title page to this NARA film, identifying its publication as M1371 and stating that it consists of 13 rolls, not 233.
I do wonder, however, about whether FamilySearch truly erred because image 4 shows a Roll Note: "The passport application finding aids [emphasis mine] have been microfilmed as National Archives Microfilm Publication M1371, Registers and Indexes for Passport Applications [publication title underlined in original] (13 rolls)." It appears that M1371 refers to finding aids, whereas M1372 refers to the actual passport applications.
Great job, mbcross. You've…
Great job, mbcross. You've gotten it! And you are right about the M number (and I should not have been trying to work through your problem on my phone, with a limited screen that doesn't show image edges, while my PC was in the shop). When I went back to the film on my PC this morning, I could see the top corner of the right-hand page that said publication M1732, while the center of the left hand page says M1731. Thank you for correcting me. I will now go downstairs and eat my bowl of crow for breakfast.
So does that mean we no…
So does that mean we no longer need to include the note about FamilySearch having an error?
In this case, yes. Please…
In this case, yes. Please remember that EE provides example of how to handle various situations. If a source presents a quirk that affects access, analysis, etc., we take note of that. If none exists with a particular source, then there's nothing to say.