9.7 or 4.6? Vital Record (BMDD) - Local but State Archived Found on Ancestry

Another question, hopefully less detailed as I believe I am understand more of the generalized idea of EE.

If I am searching Ancestry for marriage records and I come across this 

Marriage

1. Would the best approach to citing this be to use 9.7 or 4.6?

Submitted byEEon Sun, 02/24/2019 - 16:37

ThirtyOhSix, neither. This is one of those instances in which you're not citing an original record. You're not citing an image of an original. You're citing just an entry from a database created at a website that offers a variety of things. 

Turn to the QuickStart Guide. There, under The Basics: Publications: Print & Online," you'll notice:

  • You are first given an example of a print book and then shown how to use that same format to cite something published online.
  • You are next given an example of a print book that has chapters by many different people, then shown how to use that same format to cite something published online at a website that offers a variety of databases and articles.

That basic "Website with Multiple Offerings" is a model you can follow for all database entries you encounter at Ancestry or similar sites. In this case, there is no specific author for the database, so you lead with the name of the database, following this pattern:

"Name of Collection in Quotation Marks," database, Name of Website in Italics (Place of publication = URL : Date), database entry for XXXX [your specific item of interest]

Because Ancestry states where it got its information, you'll want to add Ancestry's source-of-its-source data. To do that, simply put a semicolon at the end of the citation and say: citing "Kentucky Department for Libraries and Archives. Kentucky Birth, Marriage, and Death Databases: Marriages 1973-1999, Frankfort, KY."  If you use these exact words that Ancestry gives, then you put those words in quotation marks.

You'll find a kajillion examples of this throughout EE, where we demonstrate citing Ancestry databases. In fact, for marriages, there is a specific example at 9.6 "Basic Formats: Online Resources > Online Abstracts, Database Entries & Indexes" (the Idaho example).

One other issue is involved here also. You suggest 9.7. That is specifically for marriage records "Removed to State Archives." What Ancestry is citing is not an example of where records have been physically removed from the local courthouse and deposited at the state archives. What Ancestry is citing is a database created by the state archives from records scattered all over the state.

From that perspective, given that Ancestry’s source-of-the-source data is yet another database that’s also online and easily accessible, EE would suggest going to the database that Ancestry cites as its source and using that one. (https://kdla.ky.gov/researchers/vitalstatsinfo/Pages/bmdindexcd.aspx) While both databases are derivatives, the Ancestry database is a derivative of a derivative, which adds another layer of opportunity for database errors.

 

Submitted byThirtyOhSixon Mon, 02/25/2019 - 12:30

Thank you for the great responses.  I know I probably annoy with the ignorance of my questions.  Just so you know, I have read your book at least five times and I just bought the Quicksheet Citing Ancestry Databases & Images.  It's not YOUR book that is difficult to understand at all.  The book is great and has examples of every example needed.  It is all me, trying to understand what goes where and how.  I am a young 46 year old guy that is a 100% disabled veteran and I take massive amount of medicine to manage pain.  As a result my memory and learning are just not what they used to be.  So thank you for the patience in answering my questions, especially in detail.  I really do appreciate the help.

 

Death Records

Followup Questions:

1. Sometimes these types of sources have images and sometimes they do not.  

a. Would I just switch back and forth between the Basic Format: Images and Basic Format: Databases?  See the example image attached above.  

b. Is this really sufficient for all Vital Records type sources?

2. Sometimes the original source cited in Ancestry contains a list of original sources.  Do I just copy them and separate them with semi-colons and encase the entire source in quotes?  I assume I could use the Basic Format: Images

"Kentucky, Death Records, 1852-1965," database with images, Ancestry, (https://www.ancestry.com : accessed 25 Feb 2019) >Death Certificates, 1911-1965 > 1959 > Film 7054463 > Certificates 022501-025000, death certificate for Joseph E. Bryant, birth date 14 Sep 1868, birthplace Wayne County, Kentucky, USA, death date 31 Oct 1959, death place Somerset, Pulaski, Kentucky, USA; citing "Ancestry.com. Kentucky, Death Records, 1852-1965 [database on-line]. Lehi, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2007."

A. Is it acceptable to replace "entry for" with what it actually is "death certificate, marriage record, marriage certificate, etc?"

B. What do I do with this information below, if anything?  I would think EE would want me to track down the right original data source and cite that instead, but if the best I can do is cite ancestry and use the images provided, how would I proceed?

Original data:

  • Kentucky. Kentucky Birth, Marriage and Death Records – Microfilm (1852-1910). Microfilm rolls #994027-994058. Kentucky Department for Libraries and Archives, Frankfort, Kentucky.
  • Kentucky. Birth and Death Records: Covington, Lexington, Louisville, and Newport – Microfilm (before 1911). Microfilm rolls #7007125-7007131, 7011804-7011813, 7012974-7013570, 7015456-7015462. Kentucky Department for Libraries and Archives, Frankfort, Kentucky.
  • Kentucky. Vital Statistics Original Death Certificates – Microfilm (1911-1964). Microfilm rolls #7016130-7041803. Kentucky Department for Libraries and Archives, Frankfort, Kentucky.

3. I am a little confused by the last two paragraphs of your response.  Technically speaking, you're saying I should be tracking down the original data base and citing it.  In this case, that would require buying the DVD from Kentucky and then I cite that database directly, but until I do that I need to always cite the source using the citations as described on my Quicksheet Citing Ancestry Databases & Images?  If and when I do that, then I would start using 9.6

4. A point of confusion I am struggling with is the idea of imaged copies, not reproduced but images of originals.  From everything I understand, these can be treated as original sources and you would cite the original record?

Using the following source as an example and building upon the attached image in this response, here is my thinking and please tell me where my mental process goes wrong.  

Kentucky. Vital Statistics Original Death Certificates – Microfilm (1911-1964). Microfilm rolls #7016130-7041803. Kentucky Department for Libraries and Archives, Frankfort, Kentucky.

1. When I think "Digital Image, I think copy of the original record whereas image could be a copy of the original record or a derivative of some sort.

2. Digital image or Database (Index)?  Since Ancestry gives me a copy of the original record, this should be treated as a Digital Image.

3. What Format Should I use Basic Format: Images or 9.x Format?

A. State or Locally created record? Locally created so I begin my first reference by citing the local agency or jurisdiction.

1. But if this was a state record, not just marriage record, but any vital record, it would be cited using the rules described in EE 3 beginning with the smallest element going to the largest unless  the item is held by a state bureau of vital statistics in which case it would be cited by the rules of 9.41 (p. 435) or 9.42 p. (437)

B. Original or Derivate record? Original

C. What kind of record: original, loose copy, county record book, a digital image of the original?  Digital image of the original

D. WHAT am I citing? Death Certificate

E. WHERE did I get it? Ancestry.com

F. WHERE is the repository? Kentucky Department of Libraries and Archives, Frankfort, Kentucky

G. Key Data

1. Entry? Joseph E. Bryant

2. Birth Date? 14 Sep 1868

3. Birth Place? Wayne County, Kentucky, USA

4. Death Date? 31 Oct 1959

5. Death Place? Somerset, Pulaski, Kentucky, USA

Therefore the citation from question 2 above should really cited using the Microfilm (Local) format:

Pulaski County, Kentucky, Vital Statistics Original Death Certificates – Microfilm (1911-1964), microfilm 7054463, death certificate, name Joseph, E. Bryant, birth date 14 Sep 1868, birth place Wayne County, Kentucky, USA, death date 31 Oct 1959, death place Somerset, Pulaski, Kentucky, USA; Kentucky Department of Libraries and Archives, Frankfort.

NOTE: I removed Kentucky from the end of the Repository Location as it is obvious.

Thanks again in advance...

 

Submitted byEEon Mon, 02/25/2019 - 14:41

ThirtyOhSix, please don't consider your questions "ignorant." We've all been at the beginning point and had to learn.  It's obvious that you want to learn. That is good.

It will be tonight, after today's deadlines are all met, before I can work through the new questions. (EE's not my day job.) In the meanwhile, perhaps one of our readers will chime in.

Submitted byEEon Mon, 02/25/2019 - 20:21

ThirtyOhSix, considering the length of this thread, the best approach to answer all your questions--and make the results easily digestible for our readers--would be to write a series of blog posts that each focuses on one of the issues you have raised. Writing answers keyed to specific question numbers and parts would confuse everyone. I can probably post the first one Wednesday.

In the meanwhile, the citation you ended up with at the end of your thoughts under No. 3 really does mix up peas with apples--something the blog posts will sort out. For now, let's go back to the one you presented under Point 2. Your draft offers this:

"Kentucky, Death Records, 1852-1965," database with images, Ancestry, (https://www.ancestry.com : accessed 25 Feb 2019) >Death Certificates, 1911-1965 > 1959 > Film 7054463 > Certificates 022501-025000, death certificate for Joseph E. Bryant, birth date 14 Sep 1868, birthplace Wayne County, Kentucky, USA, death date 31 Oct 1959, death place Somerset, Pulaski, Kentucky, USA; citing "Ancestry.com. Kentucky, Death Records, 1852-1965 [database on-line]. Lehi, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2007."

All is great until we get to the specific data for the deceased. The citation for a death record would not include all the personal data from the certificate--only what is needed to locate the certificate. In this case, given the organization of the records that you outline in the path, after you cite the block of certificates in which this one is found ("Certificates 022501-025000"), you obviously need to cite the exact certificate number, with name and death date.  (But do eliminate the italics that make everything hard to read. Italics are for only the title of the website.) The results will be this:

"Kentucky, Death Records, 1852-1965," database with images, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com : accessed 25 Feb. 2019) >Death Certificates, 1911-1965 > 1959 > Film 7054463 > Certificates 022501-025000> imaged certificate 24650 for Joseph E. Bryant, d. 31 Oct. 1959, Pulaski County;

Now you are at the point of needing to add source-of-the-source info in the next layer. What you have cited above (which I've colored red) does not tell us where your source provider got its information. It just repeats what you've already given us, using different words.

Under your question 2B in the last message, you copy three different citations that Ancestry gives you and ask what to do with that data. You know that your certificate is on "Film 7054463" because Ancestry's path tells you that. None of those three record descriptions deal with 7054463. Therefore, they are not relevant for this citation. If one of them did mention the film number, then that one would be relevant to cite in your source-of-the-source layer.

Going back to Ancestry's database entry,  which you originally snipped and gave us, you'll see that the first item in Ancestry's description of the source tells you this:

"Kentucky Department for Libraries and Archives; Frankfort, Kentucky."

That's the only part of the description that is relevant to the film you have used. (All this is why I said earlier that Ancestry's so-called "citation" gives us a lot of detail that often is not relevant and, conversely, is often short on what would be relevant. In this case, your source-of-the-source is quite short. You simply plug it onto the end of your citation we worked through above--i.e., 

"Kentucky, Death Records, 1852-1965," database with images, Ancestry (https://www.ancestry.com : accessed 25 Feb 2019) >Death Certificates, 1911-1965 > 1959 > Film 7054463 > Certificates 022501-025000> imaged certificate 24650 for Joseph E. Bryant, d. 31 Oct. 1959, Pulaski County; citing "Kentucky Department for Libraries and Archives; Frankfort, Kentucky."

 

Submitted byEEon Mon, 02/25/2019 - 20:32

ThirtyOhSix, I'll add one more thing here, tonight. Under Question 4, you say:

"A point of confusion I am struggling with is the idea of imaged copies, not reproduced but images of originals. From everything I understand, these can be treated as original sources and you would cite the original record."

Yes, three suggestions here: